Why Fast-Growing Solar Companies Still Go Broke

Herve Billiet (00:00) Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of What Solar Installers Need to Know. My guest today started in the solar industry with Akeena Solar back in 2008. He found his own solar marketing company called Solar Ready and helped build Red Ventures Solar. As he spent the last several years at Renu Energy Solar in the Carolina. John now runs GreatSun Consulting to help solar companies scale profitably. Those are two different things to me, so I'm sure we'll want to hear how you're doing that. And then John is a deep thinker on solar sales and customer acquisition. John, welcome to the show. John Sheldon (00:32) Thank you so much, Herve. It's great to be here with you and thank you everybody who's watching. Pleasure to make your acquaintance. Herve Billiet (00:38) All right, well, why don't we just go back in time first and talk about your time and Akeena What was going on? What happened there and what are some lessons learned that we can Use all in the solar industry. Hopefully the industry doesn't repeat itself entirely But hopefully the rhymes and we can all learn from what happened in the past So that was like what were you doing at Akeena and and what happened? John Sheldon (01:00) Oh boy, a walk down memory lane. Uh, this is, this is going back almost 20 years now. So I have to dust off some cobwebs from the memory bank, but, uh, I do remember in college that I wanted to get into the solar industry and I was in Miami, Florida at the time. And then I looked around, there wasn't really a lot of solar going on in the Miami area. And I wanted to learn from companies who were doing it well so that I could get that experience and. continue to build off of that. And in my mind, solar was always going to be a very relevant industry. And when I was hearing about California, I thought, wow, that's the place to go. They have solar at every house, right? Like it's living in the future. And so I bought a one-way ticket after graduating from college and flew to California, to San Jose. And I rented a car and I had two suitcases and I started interviewing. And one of the places I interviewed was Akeena Solar and I got an opportunity to work with them on their inside sales team. Shortly after starting with them, the housing market crashed. And I thought, my goodness, did I just make the biggest mistake in my life? Because now I'm out here kind of living on my own right out of college. the world was kind of in crisis. And these solar systems were over $8 a watt. And I'm trying to sell homeowners over the phone. And I was setting appointments for outside consultants. And we were Herve Billiet (02:15) Hmm. John Sheldon (02:24) largest national installer at the time. So we were in nine states and it was actually a little less than nine states. I think it got there but we had nine offices in California but we were in New York, New Jersey, Colorado and we had 75 outside energy consultants across that space. We had a lot of brick and mortar and we were bringing to market our own proprietary system and I was very proud of that system because it had 70 percent less parts and pieces And so I thought, wow, if we could just help people get more solar access, we'll be able to lower the cost and that'll help us continue to grow. I was shocked, Herve, that there wasn't solar everywhere. I was feeling like I maybe overshot, like I kind of arrived way ahead of time because the industry wasn't what I thought it was. I thought it was much more well developed. And it turned out to be a lot of an R and D project. It seems like, like we were trying to still figure things out and I'm 20 years into this thing and still trying to figure things out. So, it's a little bit like, you know, you sort of wonder, but it's also proved out to be a really big passion over time. And at Akeena, like we were really trying to be identifiable with homeowners, get a household name. we were using the Westinghouse name. we started to really reduce costs in marketing. Herve Billiet (03:20) Yeah. John Sheldon (03:37) We tried to leverage referrals and do solar seminars, do solar home parties, inviting customers over to each other's houses and have them share their story about solar. it was really about educating the homeowners about, you really can power your home with electricity from the sun locally produced and use it locally in your home. And, you know, at that time it was the sale. The sale was you can have an alternative energy source. You don't need to be. relying on the utility company. And I think we're going back to that place nowadays, right? Because for the last 10 years or so, it seems like it's been all about monthly bill swaps and easy access to funding. Well, back then there wasn't funding, right? In a housing market crisis, there were no solar loans, right? And we learned very fortunately, shout out to Lynn Jurich and Ed Fenster for Sunrun because they came to Aquina to help. us sort of survive that tough time by supplying us with the PPA. And at that time I was on the phones calling homeowners and there was only three of us inside it. went, we furloughed and reduced head count and all this. And I was still there grinding away. And, you know, I was pitching the PPA to homeowners who had never heard about it, but it was getting traction and people were seeing the value of having, you know, someone else buy the equipment and then they just pay the monthly payment. for the electricity you produce is at a set rate lower than what the utility is. And it just really like took a lot of explaining in the beginning to kind of get their minds used to that. I mean, I remember in 2009, it was like, wow, I sold 20 contracts and we were just like, we're going to do this thing. We're going to pull it out. And we got into the lowest big box stores. I mean, it was a wonderful time. The team there was fantastic. Everybody was pulling from the same side of the rope trying to really like educate homeowners, educate the community, do right for the industry, right? All of our partners, like we just, we just wanted to be a good steward and you know, big, big, big, big shout out to Barry Cinnamon on that and that philosophy that he's carried and still continues to, champion because it had a huge impact on me which, you know, has sort of contained to me to drive forward in this I guess you call it an industry now. I mean, I still feel like it's a lot of hobbies out there. People thinking about all sorts of things, but no, it's really mature a lot. nowadays, you know, I think people don't realize how good we have it because they don't know any different and that's not a knock on anybody. It's just, you know, back then we didn't have Google maps. Like Google maps was just coming out. Herve Billiet (06:06) Yeah. John Sheldon (06:08) You, would send the consultant out to a house, you know, cause I got the homeowner interested and, they would come back and they would just be so red in the face. Did you not know about the 80 foot redwood tree sitting over the south side of the roof? Like, like that's how you learned was like the feedback from the field. Right. And you know, like, ⁓ geez, and make sure I ask about how tall are your trees around your house and how far away are they? Right. you go up on the roof with the Solmetric SunEye, right. The size of like a laptop and you're just like, You're sweating it out. And the thing was that they could actually fit solar panels on their roof. That was part of the sale. You can actually, you take graph paper, a graphite pencil, a red pencil, and a green pencil for your DC/AC. And you're drawing out the house and how many modules will fit. you're like, guess what? You could fit 13 modules. These are 175 watt modules. You're going to have a six kilowatt system. It's going to be like 45 grand. Like, whoa! Herve Billiet (06:59) Thank John Sheldon (07:01) People would go for it, right? For a right reason, but totally different clientele nowadays. Nowadays, I see it like we need the Starbucks solar. We need the drive-through solar where it's just like, I'm going to get my 10kW, whatever is inside of it. really don't mind. just like the Starbucks customer, right? I want my pumpkin spice latte, whether you use an oat milk from this place or that place, I really don't care. I just want my oat milk latte, pumpkin spice, whatever, and be on my way. That's where I hope we can get to where it's just. Herve Billiet (07:27) Make sure it tastes good. And so I think the equivalent for solar is that make sure my utility bill goes down quite a bit. John Sheldon (07:34) Yes, yes. It goes down and saving money. And a lot of these companies, right, that are out there, it's not a sales problem, right? It's just, it's like a workflow problem that they have with continuing to scale and continuing to do it profitably consistently. You know, how I've learned the operational side over time is so important. It's like the backbone, that handoff from sales to operations, that friction that can cause their delays. or change orders or miscommunications. And the effect of that is like a homeowner feeling like doubtful in their choice. And maybe the installer feeling like, gosh, I need to save face and how do I keep them happy? And sometimes it's out of our control. So there's a lot of chaos when companies scale fast and when they try to grow fast, especially across multiple territories. And that, that's kind of, I think we've seen affects the narrative of our industry. And, not right now, the narrative isn't the one that I used to know it as, which, you know, solar was like the superheroes. Like we were out saving the world, you know, like we were doing things good for the planet and good for people, good for our economy, right? We're creating local jobs. making, you know, real business happen, dollars and cents. And that narrative has sort of changed a little bit in a way that I hope we can reclaim and go back to a place where it's like, so what are the good guys? Like we're, we're, helping homeowners have control of their energy usage, right? We're protecting them against outages. also giving them an opportunity to have some economic gains, right? Like if you use your battery to dispatch during expensive times, right? And you refill it, like you're, if you have a means of an income or an alternative way of. seeing value in your solar system. Batteries weren't a thing back in the day for me. I was talking about boat batteries, lead acid, like changing that every five years, right? Like forget about smart batteries. No. Yeah. Herve Billiet (09:27) Well, let's go back to that time. after Akeena Solar, you started a company called Solar Ready and then you had an joint venture, think, or a merger with Red Ventures. So first, what was all that marketing about? What was happening? And then we'll speak about how to do a merger with the company. So what was the marketing about? John Sheldon (09:47) Good, good call. Yeah. So I mean, as inside sales coordinator covering all that territory, I was talking to a lot of disqualified homeowners. Unfortunately, it just was people who were living in like high rises or renters, you know, there's all that gamut of, of, but back then there wasn't like a playbook, right? So I had to like literally be doing a call by call by call by appointment by appointment to learn because there really wasn't an example out there at our scale. I mean, I could look at solar city at the time, very large, very, you know, we're now in a different, a different organization than what Aquino was. So, you know, it's not like you're necessarily like shaking hands all the time and talking about best practice. That wasn't the case. And I hope we actually get to that place where we have a lot of good partnerships amongst installers. but point being that I had to help our industry at that point by. taking my skills I learned because there was only a few people inside at Akeena. And I started my own company so that I could provide leads to installers so that they weren't basically chasing a dead end. Right. If that makes sense, like they're spending money on leads and you know, the cash burn that comes from that. And then if they're reselling these leads to multiple installers and it's a bad lead, it's not even like a qualified lead, it's just somebody who raised their hand that they want to know more. then it just leads to multiple installers taking a hit right to their bottom line. So for five years, I had my lead gen business where I was selling them online through an e-commerce website, as well as directly like warming up a lead and transferring it to a homeowner. So I had iSolar Ready and Solar Ready certified. The company was Sheldon Solar Service LLC, and that was out of Palo Alto on Hamilton Avenue. I enjoyed it. was able to go back and forth. I actually, now she's my wife of 12 years, but at the time I was dating her. So I was going to Miami like every other month to go see her. And so having the e-commerce store really helped me. And so she knows all about my story with solar and how much I love it. And she's been a big fan of that. And that's, that's really, really important. You know, having her support throughout this journey, but you know, Herve Billiet (11:52) Yeah, that's amazing. Maybe we should do a big shout out to all the people that are in Solar, like all the support people that support us so that we can keep doing what we're doing. Absolutely. Yeah. John Sheldon (11:59) Yes. Yes, you're so right about that. I mean, I've even sent flowers to spouses before, just just to say thank you for allowing us to take their their significant other out of the home and keeping them tied up in these appointments, right? Late at night and such. And it just matters, right? Because like they want to do right for their family. Every person I feel like who really has that solar spirit, they get that bug and they see that they truly can do good and make an impact, like they're going to continue to chase that feeling. so having their spouse recognize that they, that's what makes them happy. And sometimes it's helping out that 80 year old who's just got a bad situation going and I need to have someone come help look at their system, you know, like, or, trimming a tree for somebody who just couldn't quite do it themselves, right? Like just knowing that it's going to cause that much more production. Like I've seen it all and identify with those solar spirits where it's like, you know, We're cut from the same cloth. And those are the people I want to continue to stay in touch with because we need many voices on this narrative to kind of reclaim what people think about solar when they think about it nowadays. And I want them to think about us for the right reasons. Herve Billiet (13:10) Now John, like going back to the Solar Ready and ⁓ Red Ventures, how did you combine those two companies? How did that happen? John Sheldon (13:14) Yeah. Well. Transparently, I'll go there. I'll go there. I love Red Ventures. I love Ric Elias. founded that and Dan, like they both, they're both great people. So I started working at Red Ventures when I had my own business. And since I was living in Miami at the time, I was working California hours. I would basically work 5.30 at night to 2 a.m. in the morning at Red Ventures. because I wanted to learn how to effectively do better customer communication over the phone and learn from somebody who's been doing it on a bigger scale than me. Up to that point, I was just in a bubble. I was doing my own solar specific, solar qualifying, all of that. Red Ventures, which a much larger organization, and they would acquire customers for like Direct TV and AT &T and Verizon. Like they did a lot of digital acquisitions for large brands. And so it was really not meant to go for as long as it did. really just wanted to get the experience and kind of know what I'm missing in my own process. And from there, I ended up kind of seeing an alignment because satellite dishes and solar panels both perform best facing south. So I would be talking to homeowners and hold them, throw them on Google maps. Right. And I'm like, my gosh, like this person should go solar. and we took calls from all around the country. And so I ended up kind of talking with Rick about. ⁓ Hey, we can cross sell some solar, right? Like, why don't we just do some cross sells? We were cross selling other things. And I said, why don't we do that? It took me like two years. Like I, he was like, always open to the idea. And so it kept me kind of going and like, had worked that night shift man for about six to eight months. And then I kind of started naturally moving up in the company and this and that became a leader in the company and they moved me to Charlotte. And that was because I said, Rick, I will only move to Charlotte. If we can seriously try to do the solar thing. And, ⁓ I made him a proposal and everything and we were like, all right, we'll do a joint venture. We'll go, into it. And he let me pick my, my sales reps. got nine of them. and then I started working with them on the partnership and we partnered back with Sunrun. shout out to Sunrun again. And, I'm just like, okay, why don't we try selling this solar over the phone? Like I've been doing. Basically it's same way I had been doing prior and, um, in 2015, we sold 1500 systems, completely remote, uh, for a son run and then went public. And, uh, we, we really did a wonderful thing and we proved that my first CRM was a bunch of Post-it notes on the wall. And, uh, you know, cause we didn't know if it was going to work or not. And you just do what you got to do. Right. And so we didn't really have a process. And so I had to help. Herve Billiet (15:47) you John Sheldon (15:55) find a process and a talk track. And there was great people who helped me with that. we, I mean, it was, it was a fantastic thing. where things kind of turned from there was the operation side. Cause yeah, it, at that volume and a year's time, installations were a nightmare to try to figure out when you're selling in 22 different States and all those AHJs. And I realized that, you know, there's no real value being transacted until glass is on the roof. So you couldn't place an order for a dinner reservation, but until you show up and eat it, like there's no money. And so we had, in some cases, a bunch of like orders, right? We were, we had people who signed the PPA agreement, docu-signed, all whole thing, but weren't making it all the way through the installation because of all the friction at the handoff from sale to operation. Herve Billiet (16:23) you John Sheldon (16:45) It was extremely frustrating. It was was a, uh, uh, a time in which I learned a ton, but I also knew in my own career path as a, as a, you know, someone who loves this industry and wants to see it continue to grow. I needed to learn more about the operational side, um, at scale. And, uh, that's where I started to find my next, my next opportunity. Herve Billiet (17:06) Well, let's speak about that breakdown. think maybe I'd renew later on where you were at Renu. How did you fix that breakdown between sales and operation? Do you have some idea? John Sheldon (17:15) Yeah, it was was definitely an opportunity for for me to kind of dig my heels in and I looked around I mean at SunRun wanted me to go out to work with them and I went out to Scottsdale. Beautiful area, love, love it Princess Farima. I mean it was a great opportunity and they made me a really attractive offer I just had moved to Charlotte though. So I was like my goodness, you my wife became pregnant and so I needed to look through life at a different lens. And I said, before I make this move, like, let me look around and see. didn't know, I didn't know much about Charlotte. I didn't know much about the Carolinas, right? So I looked around and to my surprise, there was actually a decent amount of solar installers. And I was thinking to myself, oh my gosh, like, how did this happen? Because, right, like where do they come from? ⁓ and so, you know, I interviewed with installers like, power home and renew and, NC Solar Now, and like, there's a lot of players. I, I mean, I took my time because I was like, I got the time. and you can just tell, you can just tell the ones who are it for the right reasons. The ones who are not, ⁓ or at least I could. And when I came across renew, I just saw what I had sought Akeena. And there was all the right mentality. There was all the right parts and pieces. There was the right operation, the right mindset. it was just a much smaller scale. There was like 22 people there. And, ⁓ you know, Jay Radcliffe is a wonderful man. He's very smart and very intelligent. He's, he's got a great team under him who support through, through and through. so shout out to everybody at Renu because they are doing fantastic work. And I, I remember when I got there, I thought to myself, my goodness, I I am, I am ready to relive what I had done at Akeena, but this is like 2.0. It's like, I get another chance to jump in someplace with a lot of upside and apply my skills, apply my knowledge. And I just kept thinking to myself, this is why I did what I did. This is why I took that one way ticket, right? This is why I grounded out through the hard time of the down economy. Like this is why, because I got the chance now to take my knowledge. and apply it in a place and see what can happen. So I started on the phones again, inside sales, coordinating appointments. And I mean, it was just like pretty exciting because it was reliving a lot of my past memories, but I had more tools in my disposal, right? I had a better CRM system. I had Aurora software to design with, and it was no going up on a roof and having to like measure things out with a sun eye. there was a, there were so many things that I was like, Oh my gosh, like we're really, Herve Billiet (19:38) Yeah. John Sheldon (19:43) going far ahead. So I was inside sales and I started hiring people. I started training people. I started educating them about solar. It's not like there was a big pool of solar talent, right? Like people experienced in solar here in the Carolinas, like it was in California. So I had to like really educate people on like the fundamental principles of yield, tilt, azimuth, orientation. And, and, know, size matters and how to set expectations with homeowners, how to not oversell it, how to undersell it, how to set up your outside guide for success. Don't steal his thunder. Don't tell anybody about any promotion or discount or anything like trying to really get them bought into the fact that they're going to reduce their electric bill. They're going to protect against rising costs of power. Um, even batteries still weren't around back then in 2018. So it was like powerwall came very, very, it was like on the bubble, right? It wasn't quite like. Right. is. Right. So it's just really a lot of that. And I got so much therapy mentally teaching others about what solar could do for people and seeing the light bulbs go off in their head and see them get excited about it and want to continue to go with it. And so we kept growing and growing and I became a sales coordinator between marketing and sales. And I just throughout that process, you know, realized like We needed better systems because the catalyst was COVID. When COVID hit, we were using like binders for projects. And I wanted to learn about that operations site. That was my purpose was to figure out how do we make the install happen? Sales is great, right? And once that kind of got solved there, it was like, well, how do we execute? And they were executing, okay, but how do we go faster? How do we make homeowners? Herve Billiet (21:13) it. John Sheldon (21:24) overly excited because they were moving things better than what they were expecting. And COVID hit and that's when we had to go remote. And I just started like working on remote proposal tools, remote consultations, software handoffs. Instead of hard copy binders, we started going like the Google workspace and we made like a whole flow of how projects would flow through finance and flow through all these different folders. It just became this much easier way of doing the operational side and throughout that journey, you know, it became more about systems because I couldn't go to the person's desk anymore. we were disconnected whereas before we were connected in the same building. Now it's like, all separate. So how do you still operate at the same volume? If not go faster and do better. And, ⁓ you know, that's when I started really like embracing some of the Zoho. side of things and Zoho at the time was like a kind of unknown name. but it was very affordable, still is very affordable and it has a lot of, functionality and user friendliness that allowed me to get super familiar with it and train others on the platform on how to use it. And we became really good at project management using the software and let, let the software sort of tell us what we needed to focus on. ⁓ and a lot of that was like automations and rules and workflows. And so I was configuring a lot of that at the time when I was the director of new business capabilities and business intelligence. I was the configurator and, like working with the team and like, what are they, and really listening, like, what do you want? Like, how do you wish that your dashboard would look like? Like what information do you need to know about? what do you wish you only got reminded one time or every week or every month and like, listening to the people who were actively engaged on these projects, because I would look for opportunities to how to make their life a little bit easier. How do I make their job a little bit smoother? Because it matters for their retention, right? Like people need job satisfaction. Herve Billiet (23:20) I think that is a key part that I see happening across all companies that everybody now has a CRM, but it's the ones that keep investing in it because it's never just built and finished. It's always evolving. so the people have like a specific, not even a department, right? But a specific person, like if you ever, if you want something, you go to this person that fixes in the CRM, set a new workflow, set a new design, like whatever does it, the template, whatever it is. And it's those companies that keep evolving and growing. The same is never finished. And that's also in part why Sunvoy existed, because you have some data in your CRM, but then you have data everywhere else. And so it's combining all of that. That's what Sunvoy does. But I'd like to change gears, John, about from the past to the present. So we'd great some consulting. But you posted, for example, that a sole installer can have a cost of acquisition below $800. John Sheldon (23:59) Absolutely. Herve Billiet (24:13) How is that possible and what are the most installers doing wrong if they are still at a $3k $6k range? John Sheldon (24:18) Yeah, yeah, it's certainly possible. mean, everybody knows the name of the game is referrals, but it's all these other things. this just comes from, I guess, frugality going through those hard times and seeing companies going out of business in the early days and knowing how important cash flow is to the lifeblood of an installer. You could literally bleed out from owing so much money because there's so much fronted to all of these things. And it just really affects the bottom line. And so it's not like a software is going to fix all these operational problems, but a workflow design will. so really getting a streamlined process where it's better qualification, there's better process at the gates. So for instance, your sales consultants don't create a design on every single person who raises their hand, right? Or they check to make sure that there's not an existing address in the system already, because a lot of these proposal softwares, you know, they charge per address, right? You can make as many designs as you want, but each address is unique and they're going to charge for that. so, you know, unless there's a gatekeeping process of like, did we double check that this address doesn't already exist before we created it again? I've seen that time and time again, where it's, you know, repeated the same project on the same address over time, right? It's not as it could be years later, six months later, the homeowner is interested again. Well, let me create a new project. Well, that project already existed, right? All you needed to do was just go in and like create the new, the new design for it. ⁓ but those like soft costs that just chew away at things and all these additional subscription fees that just eat away at. people companies bottom lines because you know, they have so many licenses that they're using and subscriptions that they have. And like this person is no longer there, but their ⁓ license is still active. That was one of the things that I really doubled down on when I was business intelligence and up and working in that business capabilities capacity, because it was all these softwares that we use nowadays are so many, it's plentiful. But, but like you have to keep a pulse on who's actively using it. If someone didn't use something or like log in in like months and that would be my first red flag. Like, okay, are they even still here? Hey, so and so still here. Here's the list of people who haven't logged in in three months. They here, they're not here. Well, pull that license out because they, know, that's just going to help reduce the overhead, right? And that matters to profitability. it's not just. those like gatekeeping things, right? It's other stuff because, know, ⁓ unnecessary costs behind some of the stuff, really does impact the overall business health. And one of the ones is new construction that I personally see as a huge opportunity for us as an industry, because it's underserved. We can do way better than what we're doing. But it also has some of the lowest customer acquisition costs because there's not a bunch of companies competing for the same. project and that's mainly because they don't quite have the blueprint mindset or the ability to standardize a process around new construction. And so it becomes this sort of like, Hey, that's too hard. We don't want to touch that type of thing. Well, that homeowner wants a house is built, isn't going solar anytime soon. Right. Like they've already gone through the process of construction and all the contractors and their heads just over it. Right. So the best time though is really when they got the funding for the project and they are interested in solar and they're thinking about adding it and maybe they're retiring and they want to fix their expenses. you know, solar is a great opportunity for them to do that on a monthly cashflow per way. So, you know, new construction is one of those things that if a company can figure out like how to operationally like address those customers who are interested, they're going to make like an annuity style volume where now they're having a referral. that they otherwise wouldn't have had. Now they've had an incremental customer they otherwise wouldn't have had. And those builder relationships, they start to become another channel of word of mouth, word of mouth, hey, new construction, we just worked with this installer. They did a great job. They were with us. We coordinated things. I know them. You start tapping into the builder relationships, right? We always know HVAC or roofing, right? Like the tree trimmers, right? Those are great. Let's keep going. but we're kind of underserving some of that with some of these builder relationships where guess what? Like these homeowners who are building their dream home, right? They're paying hundreds of dollars for blueprints and architecture, right? They will pay for someone to show them a solar design on their home, not like a ground mounted array. And we're guesstimating what the solar is going to look like. Like no one's going to identify with that. They need to see their actual home they're building in 3D rendering with how many panels it's going to fit, how much energy is. Herve Billiet (28:46) Yeah. John Sheldon (29:02) potentially going to be produced. And they still have a chance to make changes to the orientation, the plot location, the tilt of the pitch, the roof. Like that is amazing experience for a customer where they design their solar, they had the funding for it. They work with their builder. The builder loves the installer. Everything's coordinated. You use your software like a Zoho to help just keep things on track. You don't lose sight of it. And you're just steamrolling some of that and those. Herve Billiet (29:28) And I remember like I've done that. Like my strategy was several different ways. One is going out to architects. There's a lot of architecture firms in your city locally. And we made some events with them and I went to some events of pure architects. What I found out, the problem with architects is like they are usually like way in advance. they source some materials they have in their CAD files, some solar panels, they put some like... you know, like some super old panels, like at the time was like 250 watts, like where did you find that ancient thing? But anyway, they use it and then they asked like, can you build that part? And so we had some strong relationships with a few architecture firms of all those meetings and building relationships. I think like maybe three projects came alive. So it was not the best years of our time. We did the same with architecture for commercial buildings. And they too, like you sometimes years too early. Where they design they need to win their bids and then Eventually, you can go build it. I remember one architecture from like a lot of meetings a lot of these artwork and we didn't win anything there so kind of Wasted time there, but then we also did new construction We had several partnerships one was um, a kind of a local not a high volume new construction And they were going to sell solar part of like, know when they sell on your homes like you want this they check the box And one of the items you could check was solar. We did a few demo projects, but that was it. But then there was a new construction and that really worked well. They came to us with like, here are 20 projects. We give you 20 projects at a time. The problem is that the price was so rock bottom. And the idea was like, well, if you're gonna do an entire home development, then we go out and we just knock everything. at once, once we there, we just do one move after the other. It was like super small systems, like three, four kilowatt systems. And we did that. Except my mistake was I thought it would be very cookie cutter, all the same. And in theory, they were, but in practice, they were not. So you had to project manage every little project by itself instead of like, just, okay, you're gonna do. John Sheldon (31:28) Interesting. Herve Billiet (31:36) put panels on like there was five homes at once, the designs changed, it was more, it was not cookie cutter as I expected. And the money was super low. But really a few of those relationships, and once you had one, could eat more easily have another one because like, you work with those, that new construction company, you immediately get the competitors with it. John Sheldon (31:44) Interesting, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, like, they're still in their infancies on solar as well. Right. Like a lot of those builders, it's kind of unknown. So it takes education, it takes collaboration to kind of help them see through the lens of the installer and like all the things that we look at it from our perspective. And the only way that we improve overall is having those dialogues and working on those partnerships, which right now it's a lot of kind of just in the background because we're so focused on the existing solar, but You know, there is this whole other channel that, that can provide us, especially in tough times when it's like, Hey, where's the financing? Who's paying this lease, that loan, cetera. Like these builders can bake that into the mortgage very easily. Like 50 grand on a new home is no big deal. Right? Like that is something that can then be put onto their mortgage and work through it. So I appreciate you sharing that because I've seen those homes where that's a community built solar and you think it would be standardized and it would be cookie cutter, but it does sort of have some specifics, but I've seen improvements and enhancements over time where there are some builders. mean, just recently Qcells was talking about their new builder channel, right? And Tesla has their new builder channel. I mean, there's millions of new homes built every single year, right? Like that's opportunity that we either grab. and pull into our revenue channels or we just forget it and leave it on the side. Right. Like we have two hands. We need to work both sides and, ⁓ continue to continue to try to find those ways of lowering customer acquisition. Because once you have a new home built with solar on it, like it's off the market, right. It's just, no one's going to get it. You're going to service that thing for hopefully a long, long time, right. With any kind of maintenance. which, which is really where I love. what Sunvoy is doing because I mean, this is, and not to plug you. Hey, I, this is a serious note, right? I've been talking about a lot of companies, lot of softwares. The Sunvoy application has just to me been a grain changer because you have so much ease of use from centralizing all this communication, this monitoring system, that monitoring system. It's like, have solar, but I don't have a battery or a smart panel or an EV. because I don't even want the headache of having to open up. Like I got my SolarEdge app and like that's about all I can tolerate. Right. ⁓ but there's so much more value to any homeowner, to any installer who can white label that Sunvoy app and then be able to communicate to the homeowner and get those reviews and referrals. The homeowners got tremendous value seeing, you know, all their systems working together in one application, not these plethora of apps, if you will, that comes with this stuff now. Herve Billiet (34:27) Hmm. John Sheldon (34:29) ⁓ and it's just, it's just, and it all means well, but it just becomes so much noise. It's like, even for me, like it's like daunting. and so whenever that time comes, I do have my battery and I got my EV and I, know, have my, my smart panel. Like I will want the Sunvoy app where I can actually just have one thing for all things. Like that just operationally makes more sense to me. cause the less time you're, you know, your team spends chasing information or I spend chasing information is just the more time I have spending on executing or your team has spent any executing. ⁓ and so, yeah, I just, I appreciate what you've done and what you're focused on. I think it's a unique way of also lowering customer acquisition costs, to drive it under the 1300, 1500 to 3000. And this stuff has just been astronomical. ⁓ you bid on the word solar and search engine or keywords and it's just high intent, but Herve Billiet (35:14) Yeah, good luck. And you know, the best part, the best part, like what we thought in theory, but then I mean, we don't not just theory, like we first built for ourselves. So we know he was working. mean, we increased our referrals to 84%. So we knew we knew it was working, but doing enough for multiple years for other solar installers we did a calculation and it's working. It's brilliant. John Sheldon (35:35) It makes perfect sense. Then, people want that, right? Like give people what they want. People want usability, user friendliness, singularity, wherever it makes sense, right? Like less is more nowadays. There's so many things pulling at us. And it's like, when a homeowner gets a system, my dad, after so many years of not having solar, got solar two years ago and he's become addicted to his monitoring. And I was like, my, I mean, he's a stock guy, right? He likes tickers and stuff. So he sees that. Herve Billiet (35:58) Okay. John Sheldon (36:02) ⁓ and it's, it's funny because when I hear him talk about it with others, it's he's talking about this application or that product and this name, like he's become super intricate with it all. but the people who he's talking to are kind of like, okay, right. They're not, they're not there yet. It's a lifestyle change. It's a lifestyle change. So we have to put the barrier really, really low. This isn't the early days, like where people are really bought into solar work. Like tell me about the latest solar output panel. Herve Billiet (36:18) Mm-hmm. John Sheldon (36:29) Right back then it was like 175 and then we hit 200. was like, Oh my gosh, sun power revolution. Right. A lot of this stuff is commoditized. Now a lot of this stuff is very, it does work. Right. Like it does look good. It is practical. There are uses of it in so many different ways. So once it gets to that point, the Starbucks customer comes around and it's just like, they just, they just want this, right. They just want the simple, simple setup. What's going to cover their energy needs. Herve Billiet (36:56) Get it done. John Sheldon (36:56) They don't need to know about all the ins and outs and like why this model number is better than this model number. Like there's some of that, right? But the masses, the masses where we got to get to really, really quickly, because there's a lot of sun every day and a lot of great places that are solar ready. Like we need, we need to just make it simple. And for that to happen, we have to have trust. We have to have companionship amongst each other. Right? We can't be enemies, frenemies, right? Like we need collaboration. We, we, Sunvoys already made an amazing application. Does it need to be 20 other Sunvoys trying to do the same thing? Right. You get my point? Like there's, there's, there's a point where it's like, okay, we got enough of what works. Like, let's just start to band together and not continue to pull different directions. And then things ultimately end up breaking. ⁓ so that's what I'm trying to in my space and consulting, I'm trying to help installers make smart strategic partnerships. where things make sense, look for needs, listen for pain points, provide solutions, make alternatives, make recommendations, make introductions. I mean, I'll even roll up my sleeve and do the designing on the new construction, right? Like I don't have any problems sitting there for the 45 minutes to an hour because this stuff takes time, right? If you want to get it right, it takes time, but like it's worth it when the sales consultant has huge amount of confidence in what he's presenting. The homeowner totally is bought in on what they're seeing and they feel like, wow, my gosh, that's my house or, know, whatever the case is that the sale from sale to install is faster than what they thought, right? I mean, that's the mantra, right? Reduce the days to install, reduce the days to install because that's where we make the money. So now in my current space, it's like, I know sales, marketing, operations. Sure. Herve Billiet (38:35) So yeah, let's speak about great sign consulting. So tell us more, John, what is great sign consulting? What do you offer your clients? John Sheldon (38:43) Well, I mean, I offer them operational discipline because that is huge in this day and age, right? The ones who are growing really fast and they're selling, selling, selling, but they have no operational discipline. it sends up just in money coming in one hand and out the other, right? And there's not a whole lot of stability in there. And so how do you standardize for scale? Right? I'm trying to help companies, have simpler workflows, smarter workflows from experience. ⁓ having been through a lot of these processes, you know, I kind of know where the road leads so I can kind of identify with where they're at today and sort of where do they want to go and understand that try to understand as much as I can, ask a lot of good questions and really be an advisor of that sort, because, I'm not there to help sell anybody. I'm not trying to sell anybody. I'm trying to help people look at things from a different perspective, coming from a place of experience. ⁓ I think, I think about. You know, let's just say Nebraska, right? Or I don't know, South Dakota, right? There are states who are still where the solar market is like brand new, right? There are places in this country that are still going to go through all the growing pains, which we're feeling right now on the bleeding edge. for sure. for sure. Yeah. There are still places like we hear about solar, but it's like, you know, what is it? The 20 something states, right? We're a 50 state nation. Herve Billiet (39:52) Really? I didn't know. Wow. John Sheldon (40:03) There are places that still think so it doesn't exist or doesn't work or is a myth or X, Y, Z. And they're hearing the tabloids of it's a scam and this and that. So they're never even going to consider it. we have to educate still for a lot of people who are in the early phases, but we have all the technology of what we have today. It's not California 20 years ago. Herve Billiet (40:28) Exactly. John Sheldon (40:29) So I think about them and how do we get them to start off on our shoulders? Not where we started off ground level, but how do we make them accelerate their education and pick up best practices? And I talked to a team yesterday in Ohio and they're just doing surface work right now. And, um, you know, they're, they're, they're a few years old in 2022 and They're like, you know, we're looking for an EPC who we can just have reliable work to be able to go, you know, work on these systems and help things out. I'm like, awesome. I know a team. I'm going to put you in touch. and, and that's, that's like Ohio, right? And they still have net metering in Ohio. They still have one-to-one. They're like batteries. We don't need batteries. It's like, and we're over here talking about batteries are like, you know, the big all end all be all, which they are because we're like in the future. Herve Billiet (41:00) . and Yeah. John Sheldon (41:18) But there's places that are still like, you know, not there yet and they don't need to be. So, I want to help those installers get educated. want to help the big ones get bigger and have a healthier margin. So they're around. When I say bigger, I don't mean like take over the country. mean like bigger in the pocket books, like deeper pockets, because when the economy changes or things change, like you gotta be able to survive those storms, you know? Herve Billiet (41:45) And so for John, the people that want to hear more about you and maybe work with you, what's the best way to find you? John Sheldon (41:51) Well, I'm on LinkedIn. can just look up my name. You can go to greatsunconsulting.com and come straight into me. And you can also email me at john.sheldon, S-H-E-L-D-O-N at greatsunconsulting.com. I always happen to take a phone call. Always happy to have a conversation. I'm super open about all this. I mean, it comes from a place of experience. I've almost been in the solar industry as long or longer than I have been alive. before this whole industry. So I plan to see this through to the end. I want to be around like-minded individuals and enjoy the time. And hopefully my little girl now who's 10 will look back and say like, Daddy, I'm glad you were part of the solution and you work with such great people to help make the world a better place for me. Herve Billiet (42:19) Yeah. Wow. Thank you. Thank you. I say the same to my kids, like trying to be part of the solution. So, I feel like. Yep. John Sheldon (42:42) Yes, they're depending on us, right? That's the bigger motivator of all of them. So, but no, I, I appreciate you making, making me have an opportunity to share my story. there's a whole lot of other places we could have gone. I'm happy with how we had this discussion Herve, because, ⁓ you know, I, I, I know from your experience that you are doing a really, really good job and like you have a unique value add proposition. And I want to see that continue to become part of the standardized part of our sales process of a solar process of a post install process, because right now it's just like it's installed and that's it, but it doesn't have to be that way. It could be installed and then I get to live with it. I get to interact with it. I get to experience it. Right. I get that feeling in my hand, like driving off a car from a lot, just bought it. Like we're missing a lot of that sort of. pizzazz in our industry. you know, it was fun when it was there, but we're missing it right now. We're missing those homeowners feeling that zeal of like, I want solar and they shot it from the rooftops, right? And we can make it happen for them if we work together as an industry, as teams and collaborate. you know. Herve Billiet (43:56) I think there's more of the experience that you mentioned there. It's actually a wonderful experience. When you electricity bill, it's just really, really low. Like I have a rental property and there's obviously solar on it. And the person told me like, wait, I just paid $0. Like bill came through and then another one was $8. He's like, this is fantastic. Like, yeah, you're welcome. So it is an experience, but you have to, yeah, it's way... more than just some numbers on a spreadsheet or a sales proposal. It's an experience when that low utility bill comes through. And I think solar installers are switching from just selling to selling a lifetime and having a lifetime relationship, a long-term relationship with that homeowner. So there is a lot to unpack there. John Sheldon (44:41) It is, it is. And as a customer, I'm going to do a little humble bragging. I don't know if you can hold this, if I can show you this. What's, what's my, my Duke bill. Herve Billiet (44:46) Uh-huh. Minus thousand dollars. Wow. John Sheldon (44:52) So it is real, right? I remember trying to walk the talk, everything, know, and I'm just like, it's legitimately saving money, producing clean energy. You know, there's no qualms about it. Like, we just need to act like that. We just need to talk like that. We need to carry ourselves. Like we have an ability to provide an alternative solution to rising costs of electricity, which this year is, it's going to be a hot one, right? AC is going to be cranking, like people are going to be desperately looking for solutions. And I want us to, to continue as an industry to like say, Hey, you know, we're, we're maybe not perfect, but we still have the ability to help you. Like the situation may not be great, but you're in right now, but like, give me an opportunity to show you an alternative way or, know, Herve Billiet (45:40) Exactly. John Sheldon (45:40) And that's, that's where, and then we got to execute and then we got to do, we got to go do the right thing, be better than what people were expecting. And then they'll, they'll want to tell their neighbor. And then we were back in the good graces. So it just takes a little time, but we have, we have the time right now and, you know, we went together and like all voices thing. think I told you that before, it was like, we don't want just a lot of voices in the room to be like the largest companies that everybody hears and thinks of solar. Like there's so many local installers everywhere. We need all the voices together, like a choir kind of seeing that the same rhythm and sheet of music. So that way it's, that is the industry at large. It's not just the few with the loudest voice. It's everybody collectively saying kind of the same thing. So that's my perspective on it. Sure. Herve Billiet (46:25) Well, thank you, John, for sharing your perspective. Thank you for being in the solar industry for so long and see the evolution, see how the industry matured and be part of it. And thank you for helping all those solar companies with their greats and consulting operational wise. It's important. So thank you. John Sheldon (46:40) Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, Hervé. It was a pleasure speaking with you. Bye-bye. Herve Billiet (46:46) Thank you.